[This is Essay #2 in 'The Spotlight Series'. Click here for archives]
The Struggle Against the Brahmin/The Struggle Against the White Man: Inter-Connectivity Between India/U.S. Struggles
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While trying to blog on connections between Dalit struggles and people of color struggles in the U.S. one thing that struck me was the similarities of caste and whiteness; specifically on not seeing one’s own privilege as an upper caste Hindu or as a white person. One thing whites have done in America is try to co-opt movements from people of color and try to make them their own or try to co-opt them by trying to enfold certain leaders from communities of color into the mainstream political fold so only cosmetic changes are done and no real change happens. The main political parties are still run by white males with their token people of color mixed in but the reality is, is that these parties are still guided by white elites and essentially only represent the interests of white elites; which in turn shows us why there was never really any big change in the American racial landscape after the civil rights bills of the 1960s.
So too for the Congress Party of India, which for a long time was really the only political party that had control of the Indian government. While Gandhi and the Congress Party claimed to represent the interests of India and to be for all Indians in reality the Congress Party was actually run by upper caste men; while, even though many of whom were more “liberal” minded when it came to religion, they still enjoyed the benefits of caste. Many in the Congress Party, including the bourgeois and upper caste Gandhi, were unaware of the caste privilege and in fact even lauded the caste system as divinely inspired. This was met with severe and harsh criticism by Dalit leaders such as Ambedkar (one just need look at the title of Ambedkar’s book What Congress and Gandhi Have Done to the Untouchables).
Another similarity between caste and white supremacy is that both of these systems and institutions have been meet with both mainstream and more radical and militant resistance. In the United States (early one) in the civil rights movement whites and Blacks united to fight against Jim Crow laws, yet when it came time to really institute change in the U.S. many whites decided to back out and not confront their own white privilege; to them the civil rights legislation was enough and if Blacks couldn’t make it then it was “their own damn fault.” Liberal whites could “feel good” about helping their Black “brothers and sisters” but that didn’t mean they actually viewed them as their equals. Instead those who called for radical change in the corrupt and unjust white supremacist system were Blacks and other people of color. They formed radical organizations that confronted whiteness and white supremacy, such as the Black Panthers and Brown Berets. It was people of color, not whites, who organized their communities and demanded real change and took militant stances in demanding equality for all and access to the vast abundance of wealth that was horded by the elite.
As in India it was not the Brahmins and upper caste Hindus who led for genuine reform, it was the Dalits. While many upper caste Hindus did seek to abolish “caste discrimination” they did not seek to abolish the caste system itself, just as whites were comfortable with seeking to ban Jim Crow laws but not white privilege itself. Ambedkar, who was a Dalit, was able to see in Gandhi and the Congress Party what they could not see in themselves because they were blind by their privilege. “Examine the Gandhian attitude to strikes,” stated Ambedkar, “the Gandhian reverence for caste and the Gandhian doctrine of Trusteeship of the rich…Gandhism is the philosophy of the well-to-do and leisured class.” Also it was radical Dalits in India who created the Dalit Panthers, in direct connection with the Black Panthers, and tackled the problem of caste head on and with no regrets.
So what does this mean for those in America who fight against white privilege and those in India who fight against the caste system and upper caste reactionaries? For one, in this highly globalized and technological world both sides can view each others’ triumphs, failures, writings, and thought in order to better themselves and their own struggles and in turn open up lines of communication between each other and two it meas Dalits and people of color can align themselves in a shared common struggle against capitalism and of destructive social systems so ingrained in each society that it is nearly impossible to think of said society without thinking of caste or white privilege and racism. Not only will it be beneficial to study both movements mutually, but in this globalized world both systems collide with each other and play out in other countries and spill over amongst themselves. One can’t separate America’s goal for domination of the globalized world with that of white supremacy and one can’t deny that it is the elites in both countries (which Anand Patwardhan captured so well in his documentary War and Peace) who benefit from globalism and capitalism. Thus there is an inter-connectivity between privileged white males in Europe and America and privileged upper caste males in India. Thus there too must also be an inter-connectivity between people of color and immigrants in Europe and America and the Dalits, Shudras, and OBCs in India in order to combat this new conflation of oppression were both lower classes are left behind in the dust and left to suffer for the “betterment of the ‘whole’ society.”
[Jack blogs at The Mustard Seed, which deals with issues of US foreign policy and theology, Double Consciousness, which studies 'contemporary racist thought and how it affects people of color and whites', The Ghost of Tom Joad, a blog about his experiences at his UPS job while being a Teamster shop steward and The Blog and The Bullet, an 'blog aggregator on the best blogs concerning racial issues, white supremacy, and other radical musings'. He is now a student in his fifth year at San Fransisco State University and majors in Journalism with a minor in Religious Studies and plans to be a minister someday.]
Linked by jack stephens. Join Blogbharti facebook group.
I do not think caste system will be abolished in India. As rightly said only caste discrimination. If discrimination is avoided that is the victory. After all ‘unity in diversity’ is what India stands for.
Yes, a lot of inter connections.
Religion also tends to promote ‘racism’ of one kind.
‘So what does this mean for those in America who fight against white privilege and those in India who fight against the caste system and upper caste reactionaries?’
i agree with you that we need to communicate and listen- your post is in fact a clear example that you’ve decided to do both, earnestly. hope to learn from you, jack. thanks.
Thanks again Kuffir (along with the entire Blogbharti team) for the chance to blog on your blog.
Murali: Hopefully, sometime in the future, you will be proven wrong; but I do agree with you that it does not seem that the caste system will be abolished. However, I don’t think of “diversity” in terms of caste for the caste system is set up to divide and to benefit those elites on top and in turn crush underfoot those at the bottom.
Alex: Indeed, however religion does not need to be there for racism to exists as American eugenics and racial “science” theory proved to us in the late 19th and early 20th century. Those whom are dominant will use whatever tools they can; be it religion, institutions, science, education, etc., in order to stay dominant.
Kuffir: Thanks again for the invite. Hopefully we can all listen attentively to each other around the world.
Jack,
“Those whom are dominant will use whatever tools they can; be it religion, institutions, science, education, etc., in order to stay dominant.”
You said it!
Why don’t anyone ever look at the CASTE system as a fallacy deliberately misused only by some? Why not look at the REAL meaning of VARNASHRAM from which the CASTE has been grossly misinterpreted.
If once you start a discussion on this topic, there is unending contradictions in the concept of CASTE relevant today to what the original Vedas ever said about Varnashram.
It is true that the Dalits (I really don’t know who coined this word and when) are the suppressed lot. They were looked down upon when there was the demon ‘Untouchability’ in India. But these Dalits were brainwashed by opportunistic religions which made them to believe anything and everything Hindu is just Brahmism. This is a gross misconception thrown into their ignorant minds.
There is nothing called CASTE in Vedas. But there is VARNAS. Today the caste system has become a parallel (vertical) system, meaning, Children of a Brahmin are automatically Brahmins, of Shudras are automatically Shudras and so on. The very definition of Brahmin itself cannot be applied to the children of Brahmin parents in this arrangement. Because to be a “Brahman” is to have aquired worldly knowledge. What does a new born child know of even itself? Did the child grow up and choose to be or not to be a Brahman? What it takes to be a Brahman? Knowing of Brahma (The creator of this Universe: The creation of Universe and all its entities) is possible by practicing Brahminism. Because Vedas are embedded with information on creation of Universe, a person with true interest in learning with no biases from his known world can only understand the Vedas perfectly.
They were not written by Brahmins!!! The unknown writers later became Brahmans simply because they understood Brahma. Veda Vyasa was not known to be a Brahmin until he wrote the Vedas. He is awarded Brahmin rather. Valmiki was not a Brahmin. Where are their descendants now? Are they brahmans? (I notice I have been using ‘Brahman’ and ‘Brahmin’. But both means the same in different dialects)
I am now a software engineer by profession. I must be a Vyshya now. If I become a Defense Minister or Prime Minister in some years, I will be a Kshatriya. At the end, I renounce all my wealth and status and want to seek God….spiritualism…I must take the path of Brahmin. I must start practicing the process of becoming a Brahmin.
According to Varnas, every human is born Shudra. I associate it to mean “UnOrganized.” Someone who is in the process of defining themselves, understanding their existence, just something like transforming from a “Nobody” to “Somebody.” In this transformation process, one is likely to learn life by committing many mistakes and correcting it over a time. At some stage the human being will have to choose a path of life, professionally, morally, socially to set his position in the world’s environment. He may choose to be a Doctor, Businessman or whatever. That reminds me of ‘Idle mind is devil’s workshop’: Mind of useless human being. To me this is state of being a Shudra. Unorganized. Directionless. But it is a natural process, we don’t have to be ashamed of this.
This definition perfectly seem to fit the concept of Varnashram. Everyone is born Shudra, chooses a life path of Vyshya or Kshtriya. But invariably almost all humans end up matured with knowledge of the world. To whatever extent one can understand this world and its mysterious connection with the self, that person has grown spiritually to understand the design of God in the manufacturing of this Universe. The more you learn about it, the more closer you are to the God. Knowing God is now a process of following Brahmanism (Brahminism.)
I call for all “Dalits” (Sorry I didn’t name them so) to become Brahmins even if you start the process in your old age, make sure you understand the Truth of our existence on this earth. Those Brahmins who have seen you as “low caste” do not count, they are negligible few in this world. You can be on your own with no help from them to learn Sanskrit (you lose nothing) and master the Vedas (This isn’t personal property of Caste Brahmins.)
However, in terms of Life of Earth, and Life of Human beings on earth, looking at the outset, the time we all spent through ages to understand some concept, must be well used to churn out the TRUTH that actually is, instead of misusing.. misinforming.. misrepresenting the actual TRUTH in Vedas.
A tiny portion of Vedic Ocean, tweaked to serve selfish intentions of certain groups of people in the world, has created a disaster for Indian social fabric, with wounds never healing because the TRUTH is deliberately sealed off from the victims of this misinformation.
Stop using the words “DALIT” “UPPER CASTE” “LOWER CASTE” “CASTISM” “OPPRESSION” “POVERTY” “BRAHMIN” and you will start to see only the positives of this great country called Bharat.
Thanks for reading so far.
Suchin: So if I stop pointing out that Brahmin’s oppress the lower caste and if I stop using the term Brahmin and if I cover my eyes to the reality of caste struggles in India all of this oppression will magically disappear?
South Indian Brahmins are not Brahmins, they are converts. They are dravidians and they are known for their promiscuous relations with whites in order to become white and claim Aryan Status. In wikipedia there is always a constant struggle in South Indian Brahmins to portray themselves as Aryans. It is the same with all the other castes as well. The Aryan Invasion Theory has caused a tread error on their complex. They tend to marry whites like most Iyers, Iyengars, Niyogis and other South Indian Brahmins do. They have also been found to have had sexual relations with the white rulers of india during the time when the AIT rocked India.
South Indian Brahmins, Priests and Swamis are all fraud.
Some time ago it was a Tamilian Iyer Kanchi swami Jayendra Saraswati Swami (Subramanyam Mahadeva Iyer) and his
brother Vijayendra Swami. Arrested for murder.
They are know for such acts as “In 2004, an ex-employee of the Kanchi matha was murdered. During the murder
investigation, the police charged Jayendra Saraswati and several of his close associates with the murder.[9] The
murdered ex-employee, Sankararaman, had pointed out issues such as the tendency for both acharyas to be “closeted
for long hours with certain women”[2] as well as financial mismanagement[10]. Investigators found that calls to the
assailants had been made from the matha phone, and charges have been filed against Jayendra Saraswati as well as
the junior acharya Vijayendra Saraswati[3].”
Millions of devotes all over the world fund this Kanchi mutt with millions of rupees. The mutt is worth 10000
crores.
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Another one, Telugu Brahmin, Madgula Nagaphani Sharma known for his Avadhana was arrested in America for sexually
assualting a woman in India.
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main21.asp?filename=Ne102806The_wages.asp
Amassed crores of wealth by fooling rich and politicians like naidu.
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Another Telugu Brahmin swami Nityananda Swamy alias Tripurananda Swamy arrested now for : Police seized reams of
fake currency notes, loads of pornographic films, a few tiger skins and semi-precious stones from the Ashram of a A
self-styled Swamy . He is also running the Bala Tripura Sundari Trust in Lakkaravaram and was even felicitated a
few years ago by the then chief minister N Chandrababu Naidu for his ‘social service’.
http://andhracafe.com/index.php?m=show&id=31387
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Jack Stephens Jan 23rd, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Suchin: So if I stop pointing out that Brahmin’s oppress the lower caste and if I stop using the term Brahmin and if I cover my eyes to the reality of caste struggles in India all of this oppression will magically disappear?
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I have made my point clear though in many paragraphs.
Just ignore those casteist brahmins. They just do not understand what they read from vedas everyday. It is their human ego to show off to be part of the ‘all knower’ class that they assume. But they are not.
But to term entire vedas as absurd, because the human ego of brahminism was cast on certain sections of people, is a convenience used by other religions to find fault in Vedas and to relatively position their own religion to be faultless! This is absolutely untrue too.
As long as you see Brahmin as a caste you will never ever understand Hinduism. If you really care to, then read my response all over again, and I will try my best to help you out with much more clarity.
I strongly believe in what I have written. To me everything else about Vedas falls in place ONLY if I do not see Brahmin as a caste but as a Degree that one has to achieve to reach God. Its every human’s birthright to become a Brahmin. Even you are called brahmin, though being christian, if you can understand Brahma or the Creator of Universe. As simple as that.
Even when I am born to a Brahmin family, I do not consider myself as brahmin unless I go through years and years of study the complete essence of vedas. I do not wear the sacred thread, since I am not following the path of knowing Brahma. For now I am a Shudra too, because I am yet to shed away the filth in me. To become a pure soul, there are numerous rituals I need to put myself into, tone myself to achieve what is called as Brahminism. It is not easy, It is not what you see in the brahmins around you. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Vivekananda, Jesus, Krishna, Narayana Guru, Prophet Mohammad are all Brahmins just because they connected with God.
Extremely well written Jack. I have been trying to find a point where I can disagree but found that your arguments are so well knit that there is no space to disagree :-)
I especially liked this statement:
It is indeed ironical that while it was the working class movements that recognized internationalism long before in the 19th century, it has taken a back seat when precisely technological advancements have internationalism more viable. Instead, we have its inversion- a corporate/ capitalist led- globalization.
Bhupinder: Thanks for the complement.
How true and ironic it is!
Human is basically animal,but has a chance to become superman,by the ability of developing his chaytanna,or gyan.
attain the meaning of life which is Ananda.
The perfect gyan can be achived by practicing true knowledge,and requires good birth,good traing,and good company of envirnment and culture.
The progress of human civilization,so far has several achivements as well as mis achievment.
The achievements are the universal recognistion of usefulness of a common system of knowledge.
You may see the trend of more appreciation of Scientific knowldge,application of reasons and logic,application of crss broder co-operation of reserach. etc.
But the misachivement is the spread of terroism,dogmas,dominance of political and social groupism,
conflict of varuos untruths( breeding more untruths).
The Rishis of Rig veda,our true teachers.where human being is held as supreme and extention of a true god.the concept of truth as ever present and expanding ( this nature itself is god – Spinoza has rediscovered, and there is the unity and concept of brahmin – sankaracharya facinated )
and the greatest of all,the Gautam Budha – he himself is the proof,that a human being can become a superhuman ( achiving Nirvana)
The universal truth as has been dicovered long back need to be invented with every human being and find a meaning of life in this earth.
Did you find any of modern autronauts travelling various space shuttle from different countries,have some dogma as being more so called religious than a sienticically trained.
do you find a good computer scientist.has some dogma of being a caste brahmin than a scientically more educated.
Did you find Albert Einstien is believer in petty religion concept,other than a feeling that there is more truth than his truths of relativity.
So,our envevour should be more to for get all our differences as dalits,as brahmins,as kahtrias etc.
The classification of human race shall be diclassified and reformulated to the evolution of species and natural selection.
Sattya me ba jayate.
Tapas Bhattacharyya.
Jack,
While there are many similarities like you rightly pointed out, there are many differences that you didn’t observe.
I will just point to an article on this very website http://www.blogbharti.com/joseph/india/is-bad-governance-in-our-constitution/
that talks a little more about the politics in India. In US, where as policies are mostly white-oriented( I donot know, but that is what I gather from your post) and white dominated, it is hardly the case in India.
For all the talk about “upper-caste reactionaries”, in the last 10-20 years or even 50 years after independance, hardly has one law been implemented that can be termed “upper caste reactionary” in nature. On the other hand, many laws have been passed “intended for hte benefit of the downtrodden” Whether they have achieved that is a different matter altogether. In education itself, in a normal engineering college, an upper caste student has to rank atleast a 10-20 times higher ( i.e a rank of ~1000 of an upper caste student in equal to a rank of 10000-20000 of some one not belonging to upper caste)
I don’t have any statistics, but I would like to think the reason for this is that most politicians to stay in power will pander to these “minorities” as for the upper castes, the majority amongst them might feel guilty of the centuries of oppression to keep quiet and move on in indifference/resignation.
Forgive me for taking the comparison one step too far, but its like the jews were blamed for being competitive in 19th century Germany and they were barred from most government jobs and professions. In India, “upper castes” are not “banned” per se, but “lower castes” have reservations of upto 80% sometimes. That is why you see that “capitalism” or in other words places with equal opportunities are dominated by “upper castes”. Simply because there is no other option available for them.
Shrek: Yes there are many differences, obviously. However, I might say that one of the similarities between the governments in India and America are in their policies towards minorities and the lower castes. America uses affirmative action policies in certain institutions to guarntee slots to Blacks, Latina/os, etc. However many of those slots are only used to meet certain quotas and little is done to advance minorities in this country beside that. There is a similar situation in India with reservations. In fact, one could call reservations “reactionary” by the aspect that it was used by those in power to quell popular movements in India to make it seem as though the government was doing something good. However the outcome has been indifferent. Some Dalit activists have argued that reservations just gave Dalits a “seat at the table” while they and other lower caste Hindus were essentially black listed from moving that much further within government, thus reservations are used as a tool to put on the illusion of real progress while in reality, for many Dalits, lower caste Hindus, and OBCs life has gotten worse. For one instance in a census taken in 1991 it was found that 70% of all Dalit and SC households were landless, by the year 2000 it had increased to 75%, this despite the fact that in 1990 the V. P. Singh government decided to implement the policies of the Mandal Commission Report of the Backward Classes Commission.
shrek,
-’I don’t have any statistics, but I would like to think the reason for this is that most politicians to stay in power will pander to these “minorities” as for the upper castes, the majority amongst them might feel guilty of the centuries of oppression to keep quiet and move on in indifference/resignation.’
you do not have the statistics but you don’t seem to let that deprivation dilute your convictions. you say:
‘an upper caste student has to rank atleast a 10-20 times higher ( i.e a rank of ~1000 of an upper caste student in equal to a rank of 10000-20000 of some one not belonging to upper caste)’..
if a succesful upper caste student, by your own estimate, has to score a rank within 1000 while a lower caste student gets in with a score of 10,000 or 20,000- what does it mean? it could mean two things:
1) that upper caste students/upper caste citizens are being victimized in india, or
2) opportunities for lower caste students to get a decent preparatory/school education are so very limited that we can dismiss the whole notion of india being a modern, democratic nation that offers ‘equal opportunities’ to all sections of its citizens as a poor joke.
Kuffir,
In response to your observations – I stated quite clearly that its a personal belief, if you show me the statistics that prove the opposite, I will gladly concede. But that issue cannot be proven one way or another with hard core statistics, in which case I am entitled to have my opinions.
As for the second issue (which I know is based in fact), what I’m trying to say is that although the intention was to provide for the people who cannot get a decent preparatory education, you can see what happens right? Many of my friends who come under “the backward caste” sections who had the same preparatory/school education as me get by easier, So what do I do? Only option is to work harder.
Its the same as pitting a privileged individual against underprivileged individual and calling it a fair fight. When I say “privileged” I would like to include not just those that belong to upper caste, but also those classified as “lower caste” but in essence enjoying the same privileges.
Again, if you believe as I do that on an average the abilities of different sections of population are equal, the two factors that will distinguish the ones at the top are then (1) environment and (2) effort.
My point is that we should make reservations for the environment but not for the effort.
Cheers,
shrek
shrek,
-’In response to your observations – I stated quite clearly that its a personal belief, if you show me the statistics that prove the opposite, I will gladly concede. But that issue cannot be proven one way or another with hard core statistics, in which case I am entitled to have my opinions.’
the statistics are there but you like many choose to ignore them. there have been the kaka kalelkar commission, the mandal commission and there have been similar investigations in the states all through the last sixty years on the conditions of the backward classes. the decennial censuses collect information on the status of sc/sts every ten years. the nsso conducts surveys every year. the sachar report culled most of its information on muslims from nsso surveys.. but, like i said, many like you choose to ignore them. and your contention is the issue cannot be proven one way or another?
Well put (in both comments) Kuffir.
Jack,
I thought that you would understand what I was trying to say, but not giving the details was mistake on my part.
The major difference as I see between the American and Indian conditions is the demography of population. I will quote the statistics from the Mandal commission that Kuffir seems to be fond of. 16 8% SC/ST (I’m guessing these are whom you’d call dalits), 32-52% OBC (This is widely disputed figure). Either way
Difference of opinion (1) Forward caste /Other caste doesnt directly mean “Brahmin”.
(2)By many estimates, the Forward castes themselves are minorities, let alone Brahmins.
Kuffir,
I’ve read a few of your posts. In general when you say “upper castes” you tend to include everybody who is not SC/ST. Am I correct? In that case, you might have a point. What one needs to realize is the clout in a democracy lies with majority. We all must’ve come across “the myth of a rational voter” at some point or the other. When Jack refers to forward castes or Brahmins, they hardly have that kind of clout to do anything.
You shouldn’t expect everyone to agree with you especially when it comes to opinions. We both agree that “reservations” haven’t worked the way they were meant to. All your numbers will not say anything more than that.
If the reservations are “reactionary” as you propose, they must be more beneficial to upper castes than the lower castes right? I don’t see why the upper castes want these repealed then. Must be stupid.
(unlike in white dominated US politics, I doubt you’d find many representatives of FC/Brahmins in the politics in India. Even if they did, they would bury it deep underground for the fear of losing votes)
And just like you were very careful in reading my comments before jumping to a conclusion, there are statistics to show “how many leaders belong to which castes” and “why these leaders took the decisions they did”. I am quite amazed at the efficiency of these commissions who could collect such subjective data and I have been enlightened.
And lastly, given the same set of constraints, different people will arrive at different conclusions.
I try to avoid, but some of my conclusions are affected by me having grown up in a fairly middle class urban family in an urban setting where equality of humans is drilled into the brain from childhood, until we come to entrance exams when we have to go in with a handicap against friends who had same( in many cases more) privileges than you, when this equality seems a lie, or when some more of your classmates(these i wouldnt call friends anyway) jeer you “whats the use of all your studies? you wont get a job anyway”
On the other hand, I understand you may have arrived at some conclusions because of your facing /seeing oppression of the opposite kind from close quarters.
Regards,
shrek
Ah! I missed a ” “. To clarify
SC=16% , ST=8% , OBC estimates = 32-52%
that leaves the rest OC population 24-44%
The OBC or SC population is not permanent.They are lists compiled by the Govt of India on the basis of the 1931 census.Since then the landed & brutally powerful OBC castes like Thevars,Vokkaliggas,Yadavs,Jats,Gujjars,Kurmis,Lodhs etc have replaced Thakurs & Brahmins as the oppressors of Dalits.90% of the cases registered under the Prevention Of Atrocties On SC/ST Act are on these OBC castes.So all the people like Shrek & Jack Stephens have a new enemy.And unlike the Brahmins & Kshatriyas,to whom Ambedkar owes his career as a Brahmin school master named Ambedkar gave him his name which Bhim Rao used till his death & the Maharaja of Baroda,who paid for Ambedkar’s Foreign Education,the OBCs have no such compassion towards the so-called Dalits.They shoot to kill.
Ambedkar represents the ‘mouth that bit the hand which fed him’.He was so ungrateful that he did not even acknowledge the man who gave him his Brahmin surname to gain admission in High School or the Maharaja of Baroda who financed his studies from High School till his Doctorate.The so-called Dalits are ‘Namak Haraaam’- to use an Islamic term which means they are most ungrateful to the people who helped them selflessly with a pure heart.Such people can never gain in the world.Bloody ungrateful bastards.
@Kayastha –
Unfortunately this kind of resentment is the reason why upper classes are still hated. (even though most of them suffer.)
I don’t see what ambedkar had to be so grateful about. It was violation of his rights to deny admission to high school in the first place and for that the perpetrators should be ashamed. Infact he went so far as to call reservations “crutches” and that they needed to be revaluated after each period of 10 years.
@Achintya -
Precisely what I meant. OBC seem to become “upper classes” when treating dalits with disdain, but lower and backward classes when it comes to reservations.
However, as it is easy to talk in categories and as foremost symbols of oppression, the so called “brahmins” and upper castes have become sitting ducks
My dear Shrek.
This resentment will be there when somebody will generalise the so-called upper castes & paint a picture of discrimination to snatch away what is theirs by rightful merit.I am a Kaystha,I am not a Brahmin & not a Kshatriya & neither a Vaishya.Yet by our assertiveness & diligence we produced the first President of India Dr Rajendra Prasad,Swami Vivekananda,Subhas Chandra Bose,Sri Aurobindo etc etc.In Bengal,Brahmins used to bath if they came across a Kayastha on the road but that did not deter us from progressing & realizing how the Hindu religion was being distorted by the Brahmins to suit their narrow agenda.We aren’t limited to any one field,Our small but significant community has given Judges,Bureaucrats,Army men,Movie Stars (Amitabh Bachchan,Sushmita Sen etc),Models,Musicians….The point I want to make is that if we could do it without crutches then why can’t people from the SC & OBC communities ?
Also,know that OBC category or list was compiled to benefit the forward castes like Yadavs,Jats (Jats were Kings,Rulers & Warriors.They were very often ruthless oppressors rather than the oppressed-the terror of North Indian villages.Even now most mafia dons in Delhi ,Punjab Western UP ,Haryana are Jats & all politicians including the Dalit ones,shield them),Thevars,Vokkaliggas etc.These castes practice untouchability more viciously & the thing is that unlike Brahmins,they are armed & do not hesitate to use force to impose their will.Brahmins have produced many pro-Dalit & anti-caste reformers but I am yet to see one from an OBC caste.The entire OBC exercise was a political one rather than a social one.You seem unaware of this stark reality.Maybe you are unaware as this OBC movement has it’s roots in North India.No OBC treats a Dalit as equal.In fact you can see inter-caste marriages between Upper Caste & SC but not between OBC & SC..
This is the reason why Mayawati has allied with the Brahmins in UP & not OBCs.When she allied with OBCs (Mulayam Singh Yadav in 1993),they nearly murdered her for withdrawing support from the Govt (Mayawati had locked herself up with Kanshi Ram in a room in Lucknow’s VVIP Guest House as Mulayam had removed all her security & had sent goons to ‘chop her & Kanshi Ram to pieces’.It was a Brahmin Sub-Inspector named Raja Ram Pandey-known for his honesty & bravery-who saved Mayawati & Kanshi Ram hearing their cries for help & mercy).
The whole quota issue has been politicised very badly & merit is being given a raw deal in Govt departments.My father’s head of department in the govt office that he worked in was an SC who was not only junior to him in service but had failed both Hindi as well as English language departmental exams six times.This guy did not even know how to draft a simple application & yet he had reached Secretary to the UP Govt level.Such worthies from the SC/ST are being promoted rapidly & this has created an impression amongst the Gen category officers that these people are ‘freeloaders’.Such examples are the reason why I don’t want to be in any place which has reservations & I too have a feeling of being victimised.
If I am hated for that by the SC/STs for that,then so be it.The hate is mutual.I am more talented than those SC students of my B Tech batch who got admission in IITs for M Tech (most of them later failed) & I could not make it because of reservation.The hate is mutual my friend.
Kayastha,
Two points :
1) I agree with most of what you said about OBCs(its not like I’m not aware of that ) and you can see that from my earlier comments here as well.
2) You may have a reason for resentment, but I believe that hatred will only be unproductive – especially as it is misdirected in this case – towards Ambedkar- Whatever be the after-effects, his movement was badly needed in the hindu society of 1930s. I might not be able to convince you otherwise and in that case we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
The issue is that the politics being played in Ambedkar’s name is a politics of conflict, hatred & division which is rewarding the incompetence of a few over the merit of the many. Being a witness to it with my own eyes, resentment automatically results.
I had SC category batchmates who were all sons & daughters of politicians,bureaucrats & other govt officers who mostly got admission through quota or Management Seat & were every bit the arrogant brats as all are.Only one or two of them I have genuine respect for & they are one of my best friends as I know they would have been successful without quotas also.
I had a Brahmin batchmate who scored 80 % marks throughout but still had to mortgage his 5 acre land & village house to pay for his studies.To top it,his sister was molested & an attempt to rape her was made by the son of the local MP of his village in Azamgarh district of UP & when this guy filed an FIR,a case under SC/ST act was registered against him by the Thana incharge who himself was an SC.
Consequently his family was forced to withdraw the case & also pay Rs 4 lakh to the Thana incharge as a bribe.They did this by taking a loan from a moneylender.Heavily in debt,this guy was unable to pay for his 4th sem fee for which the college authorities were terminating him despite the fact that he was scoring 80 % marks.A few of us agitated aginst this decision & got him a relief of one full semester.This when the failiures & the rich candidates from SC/ST were enjoying full tuition fee waver from the Govt.Their internal marks were also being inflated to keep their rich & powerful parents happy.
The point is that there is urgent need of removal of the rich & already forward castes from both the SC & OBC lists & steps have to be taken to ensure that the really poor get the benefit of reservations so that everyone can be at par in a set time frame.
As it is,the SC,ST & OBC lists have been compiled on the basis of the 1931 census.It has been 77 years & already 4 more censuses have been conducted.A lot of social churning & mobility has taken place & that has to be accounted for in the quota policy also.Also the encouragement of non-performance, & incompetence in the name of quota in jobs has to end.
I even daresay this that in some districts throughout the nation,the Brahmins deserve to be included in the SC list to compensate for the injustices done to them.
Also,people have conveniently forgotten that under the Land Redistribution scheme,land has been acquired from the upper castes since independence by the Govt at miniscule or even no compensation & handed over to the SC/STs in all the States of the country.
In fact,the publicity stunt by the Congress Prince Rahul Gandhi of sleeping in the home of a Dalit family in UP whose family members were shot dead is a case in point.When the incident happened,every major newspaper reported that it was a case of dispute over 20 acres of Agricultural land between two Dalit families.
Of course,when both Rahul G & Mayawati decided to pay a visit to the family to better their political fortunes, the roots of the case were promptly forgotten.Now it remains to be seen whether the SC/ST act will be invoked against the aggressor Dalit family or not.
The Dalit & OBC politics is not a politics of Social Justice anymore.It is a politics of ungratefulness ,creating imaginary enemies, conflict ,greed ,personal ambition , shameless corruption,distorting facts to further one’s nefarious designs & venegeance, & all affected castes have a moral right to protest against this injustice & corruption.
Forgot to mention,the MP whose son molested & attempted to rape my batchmate’s sister is a SC MP from a reserved constituency under which my batchmate’s village falls.Every oppressor in this case was a person who benefited from ‘Social Justice’ & then chose to heap injustice against poor people whom they are constitutionally bound to serve & protect without any consideration of caste,creed or religion.
Forgot to mention.The MP,his son who molested & tried to rape my batchmate’s sister are all from the SC category.So was the Police Officer who regsistered a reverse case under SC/ST act against my batchmate.All the oppressors in this case were beneficiaries of ‘Social Justice’ who chose to heap injustice on poor people that they are Consttutionally bound to serve & protect.
There is a very big logical flaw in comparing the struggles of Dalits to that of the Blacks in America, though the setting is relevant. The flaw is that in the power heirarchy because of technological, social, media and cultural influences of westernization and dominance of global power by western corporations, the upper caste Indian is below the white man and hence upper caste Indian also struggles or competes, though not confrontationally, against the white man. So there are two struggles happening simultaneously at two levels not one. One is the internal struggle at the intra-national level where the Indian Dalit struggles against the Indian uppercaste man for technological, social, media representation and cultural parity. On the other hand, there is struggle at the international level where the entire nation competes with the global white power structures controlled by a group of western elite for technological, financial and strategic resources. Both these struggles have heavy impact at the grassroots level to the lower caste Indian. If the intra-national struggle is won then there is bound to be greater power for the Dalit. However, if the international struggle is lost by the nation then it means doom for the entire nation, both upper and lower caste Indians. So while they have to co-operate with the Black man for a similar struggle at the intra-national level, they must also co-operate with the other Indians for the struggle at the international level. Otherwise the first stuggle would be rendered meaningless.
As a Tamilian and unfortunately belonging to a Brahmin caste in TN i had got 94 percent in my pre univesity undergraduate studies. It became impossible for me to get into medicine, my first love. In Tamil nadu the general category is hardly 10 to 15 percent. If a so called upper caste (I am a Tamil Iyengar) has to get into medicine he has to score nothing less than 98% and also a much higher ranking in the entrance test. I had to finally settle for an engineering seat in an REC in far off Punjab. My class mates and some of best friends got into medicine and engineering so easily in Chennai just by the virtue of the fact that they were bracketed under the lower caste. A close friend of mine from the Vanniyar caste(BC) got 62% and also a seat in the madras medical college under some reserved category. This friend was son of a textile tycoon whose father’s company had a turnover of 150 crores (at that time in 1991). Many other gounder, chettair, sc and OBC friends of mine also came from rich backgrounds and owned vast tracts of land. As a matter of fact I realised the castes of these people only during the time of college admissions. Wheras I came from an impoverished family, my father had died when I was 4 years old leaving my mother to take care of my sister and me. She did struggle to get us educated by doing odd jobs like cooking and selling agarbhatthis. All our lives we were at the mercy of moneylenders who were from an OBC caste (their caste I came to know much later after my indoctrination into the modern Indian caste pyramid of Periyyar, ambedkar and mandal). I could finish my education through these loans. No national bank would give me loans as we had no property or deposits.
Thankfully I was able to complete my engineering with 88% overall score and thankfully because of the economic liberalization and privatization I could get a job in a private firm. I have now worked for 12 years in the industry on an average of 12 – 18 hours a day. Made a mark in this place where there is no caste system and contributed immensely to the companies i worked with. I have visited more than 20 countries. Stayed in 4 countries. Have done my higher studies from an american university while working. Thankfully i was saved from the poisonous clutches of reservation and the unjust government policies through private sector through extraordinary hardwork and industry. Everyday I hope and pray that more and more Government functions get privatised in India. I am sure not many so called upper caste in Tamil Nadu will be as lucky as me or they have the strength to bear and overcome the injustice.
For my children and the new generation, everyday I pray and hope for the following:
1.Day by Day government becomes more and more inefficinet and corrupt. We see the signs of it already by the corrupt BCs/SCs/OBCs. They have got their jobs without any struggle. Havent ever seen a government official work for more than 4-5 hours. That is the quantity of time , the less talked about the quality the better. But I wish it crumbles due to this inefficiency.
2. More and more government functions become privatized. The private sector reservation can never take into affect because of the very nature of private capital and ownership. It is just not possible except in some chamcha-lala companies.
3. Education beciomes more and more privatized due to influx of private sector / foreign universities.
4. Our Indian colleges like IITs / IIMs / RECs, Government owned medical colleges and other colleges gets discredited due to inefficiency and lack of talent and in its place, the universities owned and funded by private sector sponsors become recognized.
5. eLearning becomes more and more pervalent and this should allow easy access to knowledge and education.
6. Bank loans become easily available to the meritorious irrespective of caste as Merit and knowledge can act as sureity.
7. The private sector lobbies become stronger and influence the recedual government functions (Administration, police, revenue and other which cannot be privatized). We can see this happening already so there is hope for the underpriveleged Upper caste.
8. The castes become more seggregated and each caste asserts its identity as many Dalit intellectuals have propounded. Then the so called Dalit and OBC factions disappear as they are artificial constructs. The dalits consists of some thousands of caste with no commonality between them. There is nothing in common between a chamar and mahar or a gujjar. Chamars were cobblers, mahars were sychophants of the british and worked in the british army and gujjars were violent dacoits. Every caste lineage has their own tale of exploitation and fuedalism. Unfortunately Brahmins were the only caste to record their thoughts and sayings and they pay for it now.
As a matter of fact no dalit other than the dalit activistis I have met like to call themselves Dalit. Even many Navayana Buddhists I know don’t like to call themselves dalits in other (Business/Social) circles. But politically they make a hue and cry about it.
I am not saying that the private sector capitalists are angels. They are as corrupt as anyone else. But they are all driven by the profit motive unlike the lotus eating corrupt government institutes and politicians. This profit centerdness and their love for more revenue and profits will make them overlook caste, creed and color and look for efficency and merit. Therein lies the emancipation of poor students.
I was drawn to communism many times and always thought that they were the people who would uplift the working class proletariat. But the capitalist bourgeoisie have now roped in the petty bourgeoisie dalit politicains like Mayavathis, Karunanidhi and mulayams and many others. I am sure none of these petty bourgeoisie politicains like Mayavathi are concerned about the poor and suffering masses (the proletariat, who should technically and esentially be Dalits). They are just standing on caste identity to get the bourgeoisie among their castes to come to power. So I have now pegged my hope on the capitalists as it works. Communism mixed with caste can be horrible for poor families. Their social engineering would be a death knell for the upper caste poor. Thats why I have started liking the tirade of dalit intellectuals including Ambedkar who have completely divorced marxism from their lives and thrive on caste. This will be a big rope and they would finally hang themselves with it.
Dear Guys,
I am supposed to be a dalit, though I dont feel like one.
I am born into the Mahar community. I am an MBA from NMIMS , Mumbai, and aiming for my Ph D in Business Policy.
I guess that surmising about the origins of this issue is a backward thought process in itself. Merely suggesting that it cannot be wiped out as a matter of convenience, demonstartes another insight into our infamous Indian hypocrisy; similar to our Spirit of Tolerance being in fact our cowardice as a collective nation bound together only by a strong foundation of Hinduistic thought, which is a way of life, not a religion at all.
What we all need to think is how to eradicate this issue of Varna, Caste, call it what you may.
It is very simple, really. Consider this:
Any person born in India has three inherent characters:
The Nationality, the Religion, and the caste.
How does one get out of these bonds? SIMPLE.
By taking American citizenship, or for that matter, even Italian citizenship, one can change his nationality. TRUE??
By religious conversion, one can become a Muslim from a Hindu, a Christian from a Hindu or a Budddhist from a Hindu. Am I not right? The Law provides for this, mate..
Now, what is left is this dirty process of Caste conversion.
If only the Supreme Court of India allows for changing one’s Caste by way of a Court Order,the poor wretched High caste sufferers from the Medical fraternity will not ever need to agitate against the reservation issue, leaving stupid patients suffering in the casualty wards; Nor will the OBC lobby have to suffer untold agony in getting their castes recognised as backward, to avail of fast-dwindling growth and career opportunities.
The real backward dalits are any way not going to ever fight for their rights, as they are never used to the easy life. They have compromised their pathetic conditions as a matter of fate in the Indian diaspora.
So eliminate the caste stigma from your Indian way of life by giving opportunity to those actually suffering from it since thousands of years of neglect and discrimination.
This alone will ensure that the OBCs and those who have never known social discrimination, and caste-based ostracisation, will never benefit from the turnaround.
What a joke- Christians, and Muslims as backward classes in India.
Let the process of conversions reverse. Let there be some peace before the death.
LET THE REAL SUFFERERS ACTUALLY ENJOY A WISP OF HAPPINESS IN THEIR OTHERWISE DOOMED LIVES.
But we are Indians!!!So I know for sure, that as I am supposed to be victim or a sufferer of the Caste factor, this is wistful thinking, and will never happen.
Is there a sane Indian standing?????????
I’m shocked and suprised with so many comments on this blog related to Caste. The ground reality is
1)Caste differentiation is just for securing vote banks and it has no real meaning , though we cannot deny the fact that it is impacting the progress of our country big time.
2) If the gov really wants to help , the process should be providing concession on fees, books, infrastructe cost but instead govn enourages concession on merit , jobs percentage etc and people are willing to remain in that category coz life is easy.
Lets start looking at it at a different level . One Country One Caste !!!!!
SOFTWARE ENGINEER IS GOING TO DO BRAHMINISM POST GRADUATION FROM THE NON-EXISTENT BRAHMA UNIVERSITY !!!!!
DEAR VIEVERS ,
MR. Suchin SAID ( Jan 3rd, 2008 at 8:16 am ) ,”I am now a software engineer by profession. I must be a Vyshya now. If I become a Defense Minister or Prime Minister in some years, I will be a Kshatriya. At the end, I renounce all my wealth and status and want to seek God….spiritualism…I must take the path of Brahmin. I must start practicing the process of becoming a Brahmin. ”
MR.SUCHIN IS NOT RATIONAL MINDED .HE BELIVES IN OUT DATED VARNA / CASTE SYSTEM AS WELL AS IN CHATUR VARNA ASHRAM .HE EVEN DO NOT KNOW THAT NO ONE CAN CHANGE ONE`S CASTE .THERE IS NO PROVISION FOR CHANGE OF CASTE .HE BELIEVES IN UNCONSTITUTIONAL , ANTI-SOCIAL,UNETHICAL AND IRRATIONAL INSTITUTIONS .BABU JAGJIVAN RAM , AN UNTOUCHABLE SC CASTE WAS DEFENCE MINISTER OF INDIA . WAS HE CONVERTED TO KSHATTRIA ? HE WAS ALSO DY.PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA .WAS HE DECLARED HALF BRAHMIN ? WHEN AS P.M.OF INDIA , HE UNVEILED THE STATUE OF LATE MR. SAMPURNA NAND C.M. OF U.P. STATE AT VARANASI ( U.P.).THE BRAHMINS HUMILIATED HIM BY WASHING THE SAME STATUE WITH MILK ! MR.SUCHIN IS OF THE SAME NATURE .
AT THE END , MR.SUCHIN WILL DENOUNCE HIS WEALTH AND STATUS . WHOM WILL HE DONATE HIS WEALTH ? WILL HE NOT START AN INSTITUTE TO TEACH SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY TO THE SHUDRAS . ACTUALLY , HE IS AN ARYAN AND HAVE NO SOFT CORNER FOR NON-ARYAN SHUDRAS !!!!! WE CONDEMN HIS CASTIEST VIEWS .
Dear Jack,
Wellcome back to the world of Mindless, ruthless Indian Casteists of ancient time and today. I haven’t read your current article yet, but I will do so soon.
In the meantime, upon a brisk browsing, I found the following casteistic Indians comment very distrubing and extremely derogatory and venmous to any good readers. Kayastha like Indians are the ultimate source of hatred, voilence, varna culture and degrading India to the least HUMANE nation on this planet, I hope you will consider for the benefit of other readers to remove the following comment and warn whoever Kayastha to behave as how other commenters behaved.
Thanks,
Saint
Upliftthem
Kayastha
Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Ambedkar represents the ‘mouth that bit the hand which fed him’.He was so ungrateful that he did not even acknowledge the man who gave him his Brahmin surname to gain admission in High School or the Maharaja of Baroda who financed his studies from High School till his Doctorate.The so-called Dalits are ‘Namak Haraaam’- to use an Islamic term which means they are most ungrateful to the people who helped them selflessly with a pure heart.Such people can never gain in the world.Bloody ungrateful bastards.
What do you mean by ‘behaving’ ? You can never get away from the truth that Ambedkar was promoted by people belonging to the so-called upper castes in every stage of his career & that later he foresook those very people when he made a name for himself. This is not hatred, this is fact. It is people like you who spread lies & hatred & call yourself saints. No amount of posturing & aggression can oblitrate the fact that Ambedkar is a Brahmin surname given to Dr. B.R. Ambedkar by his Brahmin schoolmaster to use to gain admission in High School or that the Maharaja of Baroda , His Highness Sir Sayajirao Gaekwad financed his entire education from High School to PhD. in America. From where else do you think he got the money to go abroad ? My comments are not casteistic , they are factual & you are welcome to verify them. Also, you get some more info about who Kayasthas are & how they came into prominence by breaking discriminatory caste barriers & gaining a place equal to Brahmins & Kshatriyas in North India. We did it by our hard work & talent & not by freeloading like today’s so-called Dalits or by being ungrateful like Ambedkar or quite a few of modern India’s so-called Dalit leaders.
Lot of hatred in the World, you get a glimpse here, this is Terrible. And at the end, a human being dies and leaves everything behind him/her, then why all this hatred?
Mr. Jack Stephens, please do not blog sensitive topics like this where people just get a platform on the platter to vent all their anger and while the situation is not as bad when people are busy in day-to-day life, by reading views, claims and counter-claims like here, the situation gets more explosive and worsens.
So, though you may have done a very good and near perfect comparative analysis, please do not select topics like this in future and fuel already deteriorating world situation.
Thanks!
If sensitive topics were never brought up then Ambedkar would have never gotten victories for dalits in the constitution, Martin Luther King, Jr. wouldn’t have gotten victories within the Civil Rights Act, and women would have never been able to get the federal right to vote in the United States.
Many thanks for citing above examples. I understand your endevour but what the above 2 gentlemen (you have quoted) have done is created an obvious revolution and lead it, they were revolutionaries.
Today’s world scenario is volatile and explosive then ever with nuclear equipped neighbours ready, up in arms against each other, with countires going on wars and all sorts of natural calamities, food crises, fuel crises and soon to come water crises
If there are some revolutionaries amongsts us and they are writing or blogging something, it is good. Even if you are trying to inspire people and create revolutionaries by blogging something like this, its ok. But if we are blogging something to record our personal assumptions or readings/ beliefs and because there is ample space available on the internet where we want and giving other people a chance to vent out more anger and hate, then it is of no use because it will not change anything but just create more hate in the world.
If you are trying to be one of the above 2 revolutionaries (you have quoted) or even trying to inspire and create men like the above souls then it is OK, but if not then it is just creating another space for people to fight apart from war fields. Like some people have done above here.
Or, maybe people are misinterpreting your “noble cause”.
Anyways, thanks and have a nice day!
Hello Mr. C. L. Chumber,
Don’t you know how to post a comment? You just justify your views if you are capable enough, no need to criticise others views. Mr. Suchin is 100% correct. You are telling that no one can change one’s caste, then can any one change their religion? If the ans is yes, then why can’t caste? If the ans is no, then why it is like that? Lord Krishna only said that there are only 4 varnas. And also stated that, by birth every one are Shudras only. If “No one can change their cast atleast once” is your argument, how is it possible? How Brahmins, Vyshyas & Kshatriyas came into world? Only Suchin gave nice explination for this, not you. So please keep quite if you don’t know 100%.
You mentioned examples like Mr. Jagajjivan Ram etc. Suchin explained very clearly. Still You were not able to understand. That’s why you used the word ‘converted’. They are not Dvaparayuga people. They are also belongs to Kaliyuga in which majority of the people are like you. So only they were not recognised with Brahmana / Vyshya / Kshatria or any of the upper caste names.
Let me explain you in detail:
Religion is nothing but belief. If you believe that God is one we can understand this betterly. People are very different minded. God took many roopas like Vishnu, Christ, Allah and spread his valuable speech according to the peoples mind. Some liked Christ views and some with Allah where as some were atracted by Vishnu. Like that, who liked and followed Christ called as Christians, Allah – Musalmans & Vishnu, Shiva etc. are Hindus etc. The child born in Hindu family is reading only BagavadGeeta. Muslim is reading Khuran & Christian is reading Bible. Every book is containing very valuable info and ultimately all are ment for to lead our life very pleasently. The meaning & the Goal is same for all the religions. But what’s going on??? Why terrorism is increasing day by day??? Atleast Hindus are better. We are already adjusted with more than one god system so we believe Christ also and Allah also. Means we believe that Christ is there and we give respect to Khuran also. But others are not like that. They believe only “their god”. That’s why this bloody terrorism is spreading like any thing.
So we must understand that who follows Bhagavadgeeta is Hindu, who want to follow Bible is nothing but Christian and who like and follow Buddhism etc.
In the same way child cannot born directly as Brahmin / Kshatriya / Vysya or Shudra. Who are passing their lives by studying Vedas and all were called as Brahmins and who are all doing business were called as Vysyas etc. Actually the first Varna was Shudra. All were shudras means all were doing agriculture. But all types of food grains we can’t cultivate in one land. So from then exchenge of things system was started. So they needed one store like and one person as mediator for this process. He is nothing but Vyshya. The group of vyshyas needed protection for their shops & lifes there Kshtriyas came into picture. Because they ment for protection they must be strong enough to do wars and all. So eating Non-veg is not a sin for them. To guide these Kshatriyas wise people necessity cameup. So Brahmins took this job and prepared 4 vedas which can guide us in 4 different fields.
So by birth we can’t fix the child caste. If he becomes as businessman he should be called as Vyshya and if he becomes politician he should be called as Kshatriya. Varna is nothing but ancient job like modern engineer, doctor etc. If Brahmins are the only people who have the right to read vedas then why are they becoming politicians, business mans etc.? Nothing is dedicated to anybody. ( According to usual society I am a pure Brahmin even then i don’t like some brahmins behaviours that’s y iam posting this comment) Please try to change ourselves or atleast try to understand about the caste meaning and don’t be proudish.
@monal
u cant just comment on air…mr..
mind your words.
you neva know how badly media ruines your life unless you get 2 experience it yourself.
media catches hold of evry single p[erson who s havin fame in da society.
@ur comment on tripurananda garu ,its completely baseless. it was later declared that he s no way involved in these things.
do u know this fact??.dont just read some masala news from websites on start blogging .
please atatch some sense to it(hope you have one).
i met him personally , the amount of knowledge he has was simply mind blowing.he could relate general relativity to vedas…and dont jus ignore my comments thinking that iam a superstitious guy.
I am a 4 th yr engineering student at BITS-pilani . i ve a masters in physics from the same univ.i am a science student . i dont jus believe sin sum bull shit..unless i confirm ….
dude come up…
same thing applies to jayandra saraswati garu…
dudette…go talk to dem….n u ll definitely appreciate dem…u ll feel guilty abt ur comments….
please don join the crowd wdout knowin facts.
i can prove you the facts.
u can mail me on udaymmallappa@gmail.com
also , iam not saying dat all swami s are like this..
there are some baba s like puttaparthi and bala sai baba..etc…one need not mention their deeds..neither do they have any thng in da brain..these comments made by me are not at al base less…as i ve mentioned , i don come 2 a conclusion unless i investigate it 100 %.
feel free to contact me….plz don generalise things
Shabari’s chapter in the Ramayana proves that God loves all regardless of caste, creed, gender, race, wealth and faith. Ravana, a Brahmin was slayed by? Rama. So it means that the? Lord does not discriminate against anyone
Vedic people had no caste or Varna divisions by birth. Rig Veda – 7/64/2 & 8/11/6 call Mitra? and Varun as Kshatriyas in the ‘powerful’ sense as neither they were Kshatriya born nor were there any Kshatriya race, then. Similarly, Agni is also called Vipra or Brahmin in the sense of ‘intelligent’. R.V (112/3) says:? I am a carpenter, my son a doctor& my daughter a wheat grinder. This was possible as there were no caste or work distinction based on birth
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Established in 1997, St. Gregorious Edu-Guidance is a leading education consultancy services providing exemplary service to students all over India. We deal in Admissions to all major professional courses in Premier Institutes across India. We are your one step solution for all career related needs, it may be MD, MBBS BE, BTech (ALL BRANCHES), , MDS, BDS, BPharm, BArch, MBA, MTech, MS, , PhD or any other courses. We provide personalized career solutions on an individual basis keeping in mind the aspirations of our client as well as the affordability factor.
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Karnataka
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Contact: 91 9448516637
91 9886089896, 91 9449009983
080-32416570, 41719562
Established in 1997, St. Gregorious Edu-Guidance is a leading education consultancy services providing exemplary service to students all over India. We deal in Admissions to all major professional courses in Premier Institutes across India. We are your one step solution for all career related needs, it may be MD, MBBS BE, BTech (ALL BRANCHES), , MDS, BDS, BPharm, BArch, MBA, MTech, MS, , PhD or any other courses. We provide personalized career solutions on an individual basis keeping in mind the aspirations of our client as well as the affordability factor.
FOR ALL CAREER RELATED NEEDS CONTACT US :
St. Gregorious Edu-Guidance,
#2, 2nd Floor,
J J Complex, Above Chemmannur Jewellers,
Marthahalli – P O,
Bangalore – 560037
Karnataka
e-mail :jojishpaily@gmail.com
Contact: 91 9448516637
91 9886089896, 91 9449009983
080-32416570, 41719562
Established in 1997, St. Gregorious Edu-Guidance is a leading education consultancy services providing exemplary service to students all over India. We deal in Admissions to all major professional courses in Premier Institutes across India. We are your one step solution for all career related needs, it may be MD, MBBS BE, BTech (ALL BRANCHES), , MDS, BDS, BPharm, BArch, MBA, MTech, MS, , PhD or any other courses. We provide personalized career solutions on an individual basis keeping in mind the aspirations of our client as well as the affordability factor.
FOR ALL CAREER RELATED NEEDS CONTACT US :
St. Gregorious Edu-Guidance,
#2, 2nd Floor,
J J Complex, Above Chemmannur Jewellers,
Marthahalli – P O,
Bangalore – 560037
Karnataka
e-mail :jojishpaily@gmail.com
Contact: 91 9448516637
91 9886089896, 91 9449009983
080-32416570, 41719562
Website: http://www.stgregoriousedu.com
According to Mahatma Jyotiba Phule (father of the nation) brahmins are Aryans-Videshis(foreigners)from Iran & middle Asian countries ,they came to India through Khaiber Pass near 2500 BC they Ruled India after defiting the natives of the land , To keep on ruling they introduced VARNA- VYAVASTHA (division on the basis of colour)thereby natives were divided into Castes (today thereare 7500 castes in India)in the name of Hinduism Hence the Brahmanism is main cause of India’s problems. Dr. Ambedkar wanted the caste innihaliated . Abolish caste to difit brahminism.
You all humans are idiots!.
Any one claim who reached enlightenment is a liar actually. He takes dump before enlightenment and after
What is the difference between you and them ? Same except they are conman.
India is a Land of Godman(conman), Snakes , Monkeys and POOR!.
It is endless overwhelming noise of HINDU MUMBO JUMBO , you can as well imagine monkeys live there.
Man!
WE are NOT YOU!
WE are Braahmans i.e. Bhudevs i.e. Direct Descendents of God himself
Blacks were one entity
Whites were one
None of them is Bhudev
But in India
Brahmins are Bhudevs Dalits are not
& Phule was IDIOT
PLUS DALIT LEADERS WERE TRASHY BANTU INVADERS
& HENCE WE INDIGENIOUS BHUDEV BRAAHMANS HAVE GOT FULL RIGHT TO KILL THEM
THEY IN HISTORY DID SAME WITH OUR INOCENC\T FOREFATEHRS
& WE ARE ON AVENGE
Brahaman, Mar 20th, 2010 at 11:03 am: You mean to say Bra-ha-man is a no Man, or mean to say “ha’human haters?.
Or perhps understand that you are trying to make a mockery of their creation of man came out of the mouth of that God?. Whatever it may be, it is a pathology that continues, when the 3% Bra-ha-man vanishes slowedly and steadily in India due to changes in culture, social upliftment and modern developments, it will make ways to better society and better nation. God’s mouth seems to have done such a stinking blunder vomiting Bra-ha-man from his mouth?.