Reality Check warns the government:
If you dont produce data for OBCs, remember this, others are watching. Muslims and Christians are not going to sit around and watch dominant communities have a party in the name of social justice. How can you ask them for data ?
What can the others who are watching do, I wonder? What can the numerically larger OBCs themselves do? Has a single stone been hurled anywhere near any public institution? Have there been any dharnas outside any IIT/IIM, or any other citadel of privilege? Life goes on.
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Reality Check is a racist. I wouldn’t take his argument seriously.
I really didn’t understand what this ‘they are watching’ nonsense meant. I find a streak of violence in the guy’s writing.
He cleverly aligns himself on the side of Data and Truth, thereby implying that if you disagree you must be the voice of Untruth. The binaries the guy draws are rather fundamentalist and inflexible.
He writes, “In Indira Sawhney I, the court has upheld that a caste can be a class for the sake of reservations. That however cant be the only criteria for OBCs, even though for SCs (Dalits) it is the only criteria. So the task before this government is to prove that the list of castes (treated as classes) in the OBC lists are socially and educationally backward.”
What he doesn’t tell you is that in Indira Sawheny the court also accepted that the government had proved exactly this. He’s been told umpteen times that after caste, Mandal applied 10 criteria to make sure the caste/class in question was “educationally and socially backward”.
Post after post, he gives you this Untruth: that we don’t have a definition of Backward Classes. Whereas we do: http://ncbc.nic.in/html/guideline.htm
He will again and again do all this in the name of the “really backward” thereby projecting those who disagree with him or point out faults in his argument as people who are saving the vested interested of the “powerful landlord castes”.
See my debate with him here:
http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2007/02/20/two-more-weeks-for-data/
Amongst other things on that page, please see if at any place NSSO data has been quoted by anyone?
Nope.
So when I accuse him of being a peddler of lies, he goes and writes a post that begins with, “A prominent blogger (see last few comments) repeatedly accused me of peddling lies. Apparently, he was upset by me quoting the NSSO 61st Round data comparing TNs OBC population with the low OBC counts in Bengal. He claimed that the NSSO used the state lists and the central lists count would have indicated a different story. First of all, NSSO used a self reporting census methodology. Second, the state and central lists are not that different atleast not for TN. The burden of proof is on the one making the accusations.”
http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2007/03/03/peddler-of-lies/
In the first instance, when I had pointed out the Mandal criteria to him, he had said, “Well, 75.4% of TN “feels a little blue and backward today” and “only 6% of Bengal feels a little backward”. Should we just “deal” with this anomaly ? Where is the deal for the really backward (lets say backward muslims in Bengal’s Midnapore dist or the roving nomadic Kuravas of TN).”
Now, he never said where his source was from. But if it was NSSO, then he is deliberately confusing NSSO data with the Mandal results.
Here’s how this Central List of OBCs came about.
1) Mandal came up with a list of 3743 communities.
2) The government said that to begin with let’s list only those communities who are also on the state lists. That brought it down to 2050.
3) 253 additions made by the National Commission of Backward Classes bring the figure to 2303.
2303 communities. Listed after a very understandable criteria.
I don’t know what his problem is. But I never would: he is Truth Personified and I am Untruth.
I wouldn’t call someone a racist without any basis. Anyway.
You are missing an important section in the OBC clause:
B. EDUCATIONAL
1. Castes and communities, whose literacy rate is at least 8% less than the State or district average.
2. Castes and communities of which the proportion of matriculates is at least 20% less than the State or district average.
3. Castes and communities, of which the proportion of graduates is at least 20% less than the State or district average.
Many castes which currently avail the OBC privileges will get knocked off the list by the above criterion. Of course no precise count exists.
Oh by the way, just because a law was deemed valid a decade ago does not mean it will never be opened up to scrutiny. If that were true then after the first draft of the constitution and the first session of the Lok Sava, no further action would be required.
Remember death penalty? Constitutionally valid, legally upheld and awarded on a regular basis. But it is coming under criticism.
Also, the OBC list seems to be a one way street. I hear TN has made a lot of progress in the last decade. A count is definitely in order.
Barbarindian,
‘Many castes which currently avail the OBC privileges will get knocked off the list by the above criterion. Of course no precise count exists.’
You want the courts to listen to your wisdom, your smart guesswork and ‘knock off’ those castes ? If you’ve any evidence that any single caste in the list doesn’t fit those criteria you can actually file a complaint with the NCBC.
It’s another matter that people like you straight away go to the Supreme Court because you know ‘in your guts’(or simply don’t like your OBC neighbour’s face)and the SC seems quite willing to listen to any suspicions/misgivings/hunches/speculation or other conjectures on this count.
First time here.
1. It is a little odd to find a post discussing data or the lack of thereof for such a critical policy of social justice, under the Humour heading, rubbing shoulders with somebody’s funny video, Time magazine laying YOU off, etc. I hope the poster can reconsider this.
2. If there is nothing to be afraid of, in an objective recount, there should really be no problem with it?
regards,
Jai
Jai,
‘If there is nothing to be afraid of, in an objective recount, there should really be no problem with it?’
You should’ve asked Nehru that in the 50s.
Wasnt even born in the 50s. Hope this is not a suggestion that we are time-locked out forever and no review is to be allowed at all.
Anyway, nice talking to you. Bye,
Jai
jai,
shouldn’t you be more cautious when you’re talking about a ‘critical policy issue of social justice’ that you haven’t accessed all the facts on? this ‘critical policy’ was not implemented in the fifties because nehru wasn’t convinced about a count. so those who should have benefited from such a policy were ‘time-locked’ out. now the device of litigation that those ostentatiously demanding ‘objective data’ have adopted aims to further ‘time-lock’ those unfortunate classes. it’s a diversionary tactic, just like your hit-and-run style of commenting.
Suresh,
1. you are right about the facts aspect. Just that the stuff about “not liking your OBC neighbours face etc.” doesnt make me want to continue. I may not have all the facts but any conversation could have been civil?
2. BTW here is some more “fun stuff” from the leading humorist:
http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/about-national-commission-for-backward-classes-i/
“…if implemented correctly – this commission is actually a fair and just setup. That is a fairly big IF , this commission is toothless against powerful vested interests. So for the most part, all the monitoring and realignment conditions are TOTALLY IGNORED. This is realitychecks ONLY problem against the incumbent reservation system to OBCs. …”
3. Sorry for diverting this thread with my hit and runnery. No more distractions from me, I promise. All the best.
regards,
Jai
Many castes which currently avail the OBC privileges will get knocked off the list by the above criterion. Of course no precise count exists.
Barbarindian, name one such caste which is on the Central List and tell me how you came to this conclusion about the caste? I will approach the NCBC myself and request them to knock it off the list, as they are bound to by the Act that created them.
jai,
‘“…if implemented correctly – this commission is actually a fair and just setup. That is a fairly big IF , this commission is toothless against powerful vested interests. So for the most part, all the monitoring and realignment conditions are TOTALLY IGNORED. This is realitychecks ONLY problem against the incumbent reservation system to OBCs. …”’
Sad that the powers-that-be didn’t make blogger reality-check the sole monitoring authority over the commission… they should take into account the very objective views of reality check and every other upper caste individual in the country on how they think the commission should function. How does it matter if it’s akin to asking someone whether they like the Commission’s face, so to speak?
Have you or the blogger you so worshipfully quote ever filed a single complaint with the Commission to check whether it functions or not? Do you know that the Chairman of the Commission is also an ex-justice of the Supreme Court and do you think he should be replaced by Reality Check because he is inefficient in blogger Realitycheck’s view?
And I consider hit-and-run commenting, as I said earlier, a very uncivil way to start a conversation.
Barbar Indian,
Sorry. I forgot to add. Barbar Indian is also a racist. For proof, visit their blogs.
Muslims in TN would be a start. According to NSSO, they are more literate than the state average. This is an easily identifiable group.
Whether I like my neighbor’s face is not relevant to the discussion. I choose my neighborhoods carefully. The issue here is whether data exists. I believe only some data exists leading to a gross perversion of the concept of social justice. Personally I do not want any quota, not even for Dalits. But, given that we constitutionally accept the concept, I have a right to ask questions.
If social justice is important, it is equally important to measure the effectiveness of policies.
You ask me to prove how I know there are castes that do not belong to the list. I am going to post the details on my blog, please go ahead and peruse it if you like.
Briefly:
NSSO 1999-2001 (the last year of availability of education data across social classes), show over all TN OBCs have a graduation rate of 38 against a state average of 42. Thus they lag the state average by only 10%, which, by the NCBC definition either disqualifies the whole group or at least a significant portion of it.
I already mentioned about Sachar and Muslims as OBCs above.
barbarindian,
‘The issue here is whether data exists.’
The data exists, the Supreme Court liked it earlier – you don’t like the data which exists. So the issue is about whether you like your neighbour’s face or not. You’ve made irrelevant the rest of your comment.
I wish to register my thanks for this thread and RC thru which I found the link to V.Venkatesan’s blog for some refined discussion on reservation, from what I read so far, a pro-reservation approach.
And now if you will excuse me, I need to go do something about my OBC neighbour’s face.
regards,
Jai
hahahahahahaha
Cheers,
HP
barbarindian,
Interesting analysis on your blog, but:
# Your analysis of how many castes qualify is based on huge assumptions – the numbers of graduates for instance,,
# the NSSO data you display in a table shows clearly that the number of OBC graduates is at least 25% behind the overall state number in both rural and urban Tamil Nadu, while the total lag is 11.17%,
# And the lag in literacy rate – the OBCs are only 2.5% behind the state average….
What do the figures tell you? 1)all OBCs in rural areas qualify as OBCs, because the number of graduates is 25% behind rural average, 2)all OBCs in urban areas qualify because the number of OBC graduates is 25% less than urban average. 3) No OBC in the state qualifies because the number of OBC graduates is only 11.17% behind the state average, 4)No Obc in the State qualifies because the lag in overall literacy rate is only 2.5%.
Very reliable, the NSSO.
‘ the number of graduates’ should be the ‘number of graduates per thousand of each caste…’
Suresh: notice that some of the numbers are in red and others are not. So, if the rural population is around 72 percent or so, it seems to work out ok. But I read somewhere that urban population now is more than the rural population in Tamilnadu but these numbers are from a few years ago. I wonder whether such rapid change has taken place.
gaddeswarup,
Could you please expand on your explanation – ‘it works out ok’?
About rural population, the 2001 census says that Tamil Nadu is the most ‘urbanized state’ in India. Meaning, the population of the cities has gone upto 44% of the total population. My view is that no generalized analytical tools can properly decipher this crude serving of data. Add to this, the biases, on all sides involved in the collection of such data in a state like Tamil Nadu.
Gaddeswarup,
Yes, i’d mistakenly considered the lead figures in ‘rural’ graduates and ‘literacy’ as lag figures…
But the change in composition of the state’s population (the movement towards a higher degree of urbanization than revealed in this data – i believe local politics has a role in this change,), and the biases I talked about make this data unreliable… For example, how do you explain this discrepancy: The number of OBC graduates per thousand has a lead of over 25% in rural areas, whereas the number of OBC graduates per thousand in urban areas lags by over 25% ?
And I’m not alone in questioning NSSO data, especially the 1999 figures – check this article by P.S.Krishnan :http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/18107.html
Let me quote a section:
‘There is evidence to show the limitations of the NSSO’s methodology. For example, its surveys of 1999-2000 and 2004-05 show STs in Punjab, Haryana, Delhi and Chandigarh (partly corrected in the latter round) where no STs are recognised by the presidential orders. Similarly, the survey showed SCs in Nagaland, where there are none. One important reason for these aberrations is that classification of social groups by NSSO was entirely based upon the household head’s declaration.
The effect is that the methodology produces great deviation for BC population, because BC listing is very recent at the Central level (1993) and in northern states. Many BC persons are unfamiliar with it. This is compounded by the slowness of listing by some states. That is why West Bengal’s BC percentage is as low as 6.2 per cent, which is unlikely considering the much higher percentages in neighbouring states.
In the identification of BC Muslims (specific castes and tribes of all religions, including Islam and Christianity, have always been included in BC and ST lists), the NSSO’s figure of 31.7 per cent in 1999-2000 and partly corrected to 40.7 per cent in 2004-05 is much lower than reality.
For example, how can it justify 56.8 per cent for Muslim OBCs in 1999-2000 going down to 52.7 per cent in 2004-05 for Karnataka when, as noted by Sachar, Karnataka, like Kerala, has included the entire Muslim population as a sub-category of BCs and the Central List has excluded only nine castes/communities of Muslims who are not socially backward.
The wide variations between the two rounds are evidence of the yet incomplete process of correction of NSSO’s errors. This is also true of the NSSO’s overall BC figure tom-tommed by Karan Thapar and others. When errors are eliminated and maximum precision is introduced, the figure will rise to that estimated by Mandal.’
Suresh: Thanks for the clarifications. I am not really able to follow the topic since I do not know who OBC are in the area I come from. I just pointed out what seemed to be an oversight. Thanks again.
The article is interesting. How does the author know that if a precise survey is conducted the figures will magically increase to exactly coincide with Mandal figures? After all you are claiming that NSSO figures are bad, i.e. of poor quality. So, a precise recount might lead to any outcome. Figures may increase or decrease.
By the way, whenever data is demanded, it is stated with the strongest possible emphasis that data exists and the data is adequate. There are many bloggers/commenteres on this site itself who believe data exists and it is precise. You are saying data is bad. You can’t have it both ways.
Barbarindian,
‘By the way, whenever data is demanded, it is stated with the strongest possible emphasis that data exists and the data is adequate.’
Some questions for you:
1) Who demanded data and when ? It was not demanded in 1993 and earlier.
2)Is the data I am questioning the same as the data I said exists and was not even questioned in 1993?
Who demanded reservation and when? Who demanded reservation for central institutes for a specific group of people? When exactly was that? Any instance of this demand before 2006?
When the constitution was written, first amendment was made, why was not a demand made for OBCs? If it was made, why was it not paid due consideration by the leaders of the time?
The NSSO, CSO etc. organizations have been in existence for along time now. I analysed the data they collected in 1999-2001. Since then they did not collect this data anymore. Why? Your guess is as good as mine.
Check out some current news:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS/Cities/Delhi/Caste-based_census_gets_Cong_rebuff/articleshow/1848014.cms
barbarindian,
‘By the way, whenever data is demanded, it is stated with the strongest possible emphasis that data exists…’
This was your original assertion. Now I would like to know whatever did you mean by the term ‘whenever’? If my question wasn’t clear enough, let me rephrase it:
‘When was data demanded of the government? And by whom?’
Well, I am demanding this data and now.
barbarindian,
That is not the correct answer. Your basic premise was that the data was demanded earlier (more than once because you said ‘whenever’) and you indicated that it was never provided, meaning there was a conspiracy to hide it. So when(ever) was it demanded?
I said:
“By the way, whenever data is demanded, it is stated with the strongest possible emphasis that data exists and the data is adequate. There are many bloggers/commenteres on this site itself who believe data exists and it is precise. You are saying data is bad. You can’t have it both ways.”
You took:
“By the way, whenever data is demanded, it is stated with the strongest possible emphasis that data exists and the data is adequate.”
I don’t have any cure for selective amnesia, chronic misquote of references or plain ignorance. But I suspect it is plain mischief.
Definition of Selective Amnesia: “Upper Class” people forgetting about 4000 years of slavery and apartheid and whining about the due process of reservations.
Maybe true where you come from. Where I come from the OBCs were happy and prosperous. In fact most of them were rich landowners and still are. Why should I pay for the mistakes of your forefathers?
Just see how many fabrications there are in a single line of yours:
1. 4000 years
2. slavery
3. apertheid
4. whining
We are fighting for our rights. Who’s whining?
You mean fantasy world. Oh yeah. I know.
Hi Suresh,
I belong to a mixed (intercaste) descent with a OBC father and a non-obc mother. Though I am happy about my chances of getting seats easily, I am equally disturbed by the fate of maternal cousins, who are poorer than me.
I recommend that our country should immediately enforce creamy layer exclusion so that the benefit of reservation is available only to really deserving students/job-seekers.
I am nearing 70, have had my share of discrimination, sometimes against me and at others in favour. I am not sure if I belong to BC or Upper because the caste that I was born into mysteriously appeared and disappeared from the BC list. My school headmaster was a Brahmin who taught English and he took personal interest in those he found promising, irrespective of their caste. At the college level (Intermediate College or classes 11 and 12), I did not get the fee waiver normally given to those with the highest percentage of SSLC Marks and when I met the Chairman of the Scholarship committee (a forward class Congress politician)to ask why, he said I was from another State. Such instances were galore in my professional life but there were also instances of people who really respected merit and rewarded those who worked hard and with commitment. I won’t say that I have been a victim because I think I have achieved a fair level of success in life. Perhaps universal free school education, followed by vocational training (again without charging any fee)will guarantee jobs for those who are poor (from any community or caste) and much of the heartburn caused by lack of employment opportunities will disappear. So will the recriminations and downright rude comments that I see on this site.